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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau

The Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee




Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts


3....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest


4....... Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note


7....... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting
















Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod. Cyhoeddir fersiwn derfynol ymhen pum diwrnod gwaith.


The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record. The final version will be published within five working days.



Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance


Gareth Bennett

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

Janet Finch-Saunders

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

John Griffiths

Llafur (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
Labour (Committee Chair)

Sian Gwenllian

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Bethan Jenkins

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Rhianon Passmore


Jenny Rathbone


Joyce Watson



Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance


Jon Antoniazzi


Hannah Johnson

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

Elizabeth Wilkinson

Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Katie Wyatt

Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser


Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:15.
The meeting began at 09:15.


Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1]          John Griffiths: May I welcome Members to our first meeting of the autumn term? The first item on the agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest, of which there are none.


Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

[2]          John Griffiths: The second item is papers to note. Can we go through those, then, individually? First of all, there’s the Equality and Local Government Committee forward work programme, which of course we will be returning to. Does anybody have any comments on that item? No. Then there’s the letter from the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee regarding the interim remit of the committee. We’ll be drawing up a response to that, which we’ll circulate, so, obviously, you’ll have an opportunity to input into that. Is that okay with Members? Thank you very much.


[3]          We have a letter from the Finance Committee regarding the draft budget, and, of course, we’ve got discussions on the draft budget programmed into our forward work programme. Any comments on that? No. Then there’s a letter from the Llywydd regarding committee statements in Plenary, which will have gone to all committee Chairs, and I think Members are familiar with the, I think, valuable view of the Llywydd that we have greater integration between the work of the committees and Plenary, and look for new opportunities and some fresh thinking on that. Rhianon.


[4]          Rhianon Passmore: So, in terms of this letter, about the greater co-ordination between the committees, what does that actually look like in terms of this committee on the ground?


[5]          John Griffiths: Well, we’ll have opportunities to make statements in Plenary to a greater extent than has been the case up to now. There’s a possibility to take forward themed debates that a committee might consider to be particularly important—you know, a series of debates on a topic, in addition to the usual reporting of a committee inquiry. So, I think, really, the Llywydd is setting out her stall that she believes that one way of making better use of Plenary time is to bring committees and committee work to Plenaries to a greater extent in a more integrated way. So, she sets out some ways of doing that, but I think she’s quite open to ideas. So, you know, as a committee, as we move forward, we can decide how we want to achieve that greater integration and greater involvement between ourselves and Plenary. But, certainly, there are some obvious opportunities, such as when we decide on inquiries, making initial statements so we raise awareness of what the committee’s work is, and also perhaps get a greater feeding in of views from other Assembly Members and external stakeholders through that raising of profile. So, to some extent, we can hopefully shape our contribution as a committee to Plenary ourselves, using those guidelines in the Llywydd’s letter. Jenny.


[6]          Jenny Rathbone: I think it could be a useful way of flagging up something we want the public to tell us about when we’re starting an inquiry about something that requires not just the usual organisations. So, if we have a debate in Plenary about the purpose of our inquiry, and who we want to hear from, (a) other Assembly Members are then aware of it and can talk to their constituents, and (b) the general public may get to hear about it. So, I think that’s quite a useful way of having stages of inquiries.


[7]          John Griffiths: I think it’s fair to say, then, that the committee’s quite keen to explore and use the opportunities that the Llywydd is suggesting in her letter. Yes?


[8]          Janet Finch-Saunders: There’s a lot—sorry, Bethan, go on.


[9]          Bethan Jenkins: I just think as well, because of the change in system to the Chairs, it’s because I think, as well, that the committee Chairs are going to be more independent. So, it’s going to be as if you’re scrutinising like you do ministerial scrutiny. The Chair is actually making a statement, so there is quite a lot of focus then on what that committee will be able to deliver via that new process. So, I think it’s quite exciting, really, because, sometimes, committee inquiries can go ahead and nobody knows that they are actually happening. So, if that adds to the level of awareness, then you can’t really argue against that, can you?


[10]      John Griffiths: No.


[11]      Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, Janet.


[12]      Janet Finch-Saunders: No, I was just saying: we spent a lot of hours in the last term—. Obviously, we had a lot of legislation coming through and the inquiries that we did do—. You spend a lot of time doing them and producing excellent reports that just get an airing, and Members go out for cups of tea. I think if we, actually, by making a statement that we are introducing the fact that we are bringing something forward, it just makes, as Bethan said, more awareness, but also more public awareness as well, because, you know, everything does get reported from here, doesn’t it? I think it’s quite a new initiative, and I would certainly encourage it.


[13]      John Griffiths: Absolutely, and I think if other Assembly Members, for example, do take a particular interest, having heard that a committee is going to conduct a particular inquiry, that in itself is a good thing. They may well involve others—their own group, as it were, of particular stakeholders that they’ve developed relationships with. Then, when it’s reported subsequently, perhaps there wouldn’t be that level of, ‘Oh, well, this isn’t really work that I have been involved with’, and people would be more inclined to take part in the debate in Plenary when the final report is made, and at any interim stages. It’s all useful I think. Okay. Thanks for that.


[14]      The final paper to note is the letter from the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee regarding the Wales Bill. That’s our next discussion. Okay? Everybody happy with that?


[15]      Rhianon Passmore: Chair, in terms of how this committee is going to, in a sense, work with us in terms of the Wales Bill, will we be expecting the Chair, for instance, to come to this committee? It is really a question in terms of process and protocol, in terms of their oversight during the House of Lords passage.


[16]      John Griffiths: We can discuss that later because we’ve got a particular item on the agenda for the Wales Bill, Rhiannon.


[17]      Rhianon Passmore: I know it’s on the agenda, isn’t it? Yes, okay.


[18]      John Griffiths: I think our first decision, really, is how we respond to the letter, if that’s okay.


[19]      Rhianon Passmore: Okay, that’s fine. We will come back to it.


[20]      John Griffiths: Okay. Well, those are the papers to note.




Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting





bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42.


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42.


Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.


[21]      John Griffiths: In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, is the committee now happy to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of this meeting, so that we can move into private session? Yes. Okay, thank you very much.


Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.


Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:22.
The public part of the meeting ended at 09:22.